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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:28 am 
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I downloaded the guides (I'll buy them eventually) and it really looks like an interesting system. As a veteran of video game RPGs, a lot of the stuff seems pretty reasonable to me.

On another website I'm on they're getting a group to play it online. I'll have to see how the various programs we're using work before I know whether it's possible.

And I'd almost be willing to DM some of the ready-made campaigns, but it seems like DMs need to have all this stuff, none of which I have currently.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:34 am 
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[quote="Captain Yid"]My comment: History at the PU states that there have been two times that RPG games have been played. The question is, was the first time ever finished? The second was not.
quote]

Actually, as far as i know, the original group that evolved into the PU originally got together *JUST* to play AD&D. Harb was running a home-brewed 1st (or 2nd) ed. campaign. We played for a while, then moved on to various other games when players couldn't make it. I ran Warhammer FRP for a little while. We started another AD&D campaign. Harb had a kickass world.

None of our RPGs ever got "finished."

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:43 am 
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After a slightly closer look at the game, I'm just about as unhappy with it as a person can get. They're CLEARLY aiming for the non-gamer audience. They're going after the people who play MMOs. I *LIKE* 1st Ed. I dont need the rules dumbed down for me. It really seems that this was their intent, to streamline (for lack of a better word) the game to entice the online players who have probably never played an actual pencils-and-dice RPG before.

I freely admit that I'm an AD&D snob/elitist. I don't consider online games to be RPGs. To me, you need to be sitting around a table with your friends, a stack of books, bags upon bags of dice, empty pizza boxes, etc. for it to be truly role-playing.

Let the flaming begin...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:07 am 
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Derf de Lear wrote:
They're CLEARLY aiming for the non-gamer audience. They're going after the people who play MMOs.


Did someone say flame?

What, do you think they rewrote it, again, for actual DnD *fans*. Even those guys won't buy the same complete DnD rule books 6 times in a row... as far as dumbing it down, who else could a DnD'er legitimately talk down to? Who else would DnD go after that has enough fluid cash to re-buy *their* game, every month, for-the-rest-of-their-lives?

Sounds like a target audience to me.



Whaaat? :-s Just because I buy both, doesn't mean I play either! Wait...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:39 am 
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Derf de Lear wrote:
After a slightly closer look at the game, I'm just about as unhappy with it as a person can get. They're CLEARLY aiming for the non-gamer audience. They're going after the people who play MMOs.


There is a great editorial in the latest copy of Knights of the Dinner Table. I tried to find it online but came up empty. Basically the writer takes the exact same position. He starts the article by saying that WoTC wanted to create World of Warcraft the RPG but that name was already taken, so they slapped 4th edition on it.

The author goes on to explain how the DnD classes now have "at will" powers and "per encounter" powers, just like in MMOs. Not having played an MMO I have to take him at his word, but when weapon distances are listed as X number of squares instead of feet or yards / meters, I have to wonder.

Jim

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:12 am 
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Well really though, a LOT of newer RPG's are going to the "inches" scale.

Let's face it, mini's are in full effect in gaming now. these kids that can't "visualize" how far 30 yards is in their brains, so they all use minis for combat now. Then they have to figure out how for a "yard" is in mini scale... it's a big mess.

So they put all their ranges in inches or squares, because it is MUCH easier to get the "mental" players to adjust it in their heads, than to get the "mini" players to convert.

i have been following this "change" in the Deadlands world for a few years now. Once folks get used to the new range measurements, it really does simplify quite a lot of things.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:22 am 
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I don't see how making all the classes the same to play is dumbing the game down at all. The powers are what differentiate the classes now, not the name. Each class plays the same but their powers still make them as different as before.

It IS a simpler game because now a person can pick up any class and not have to memorize 10 pages of seperate rules to figure out how to play it. So I guess that is sort of MMO like but it seems to me a better system than previous where nobody really understood anything about the other classes.

"My rogue does X."
DM: "He can do that?"
"Sure, it's in here someplace." Starts flipping through books.
Other players: tap, tap, tap

And honestly, if I'm going to shoot an arrow is it better for game play to measure off the distance or glance at the map and know right away? Which is more immersion breaking? Just because you're counting squares doesn't mean that's the unit of measurement. Everything is still quantified by feet, they simplified it by saying each square is 5 feet and rounded the distances to match.

Post is flamey because Derf said I could and my very long "reasonable" post timed out on me and got deleted. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:50 am 
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I also want to say Kenzer and Co. are pissed off at WotC because of their new Game System License which governs what products can be made for 4E.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:47 am 
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DrPepperMD wrote:
I just came across a podcast featuring people trying out the 4th edition rules.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080530&authentic=true

It features Gabe and Tycho from Penny-Arcade,.


Thanks for the linkage DrPepperMD.

I just listened to part one (there are 8 parts that I have found) and I am just starting part two. Not only is it pretty funny but it gives a nice overview of the rules changes in a fun (read non-textbook) environment.

I think I will likely listen to all 8. Really interesting so far.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:59 am 
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While the rules lawyer in me appreciated the (to put it kindly) *depth* of the old school RPGs I was raised with, I am actually pretty excited by the changes that I have read about so far. I can see that a lot of the changes focus on the rules and the tactics, making battle experiences play more like WoW or a boardgame like Descent, but that doesn't mean (necessarily) that you have to lose all the role-playing aspects of the game.

Call me lazy, but easier-to-use characters and pre-printed maps sounds pretty good at this point in my life. I like the idea of once-a-day feats & once-an-encounter feats and healing surges and the like. Although all of this makes it more like Descent in many ways, for obvious reasons I do not see that as a negative.

I am liking the sound of it so much, in fact, that I find myself asking if the group is going to give this a try or not.

I think Seripmav got the books, and I am willing to try.

Ser -- what, if anything do I need to buy to be able to play? Can I just use the website and your books and get by or is there an essential purchase or two I would need to make to give this a try?

No hurry and no pressure if the group is not interested, but I am getting interested listening to so many podcasts that are singing 4E's praises. Granted, these are boardgame podcasts (and not RPG-based podcasts) which find this edition more palatable to boardgame enthusiasts, but I'm much more of a boardgamer these days anyway.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:42 pm 
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I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying what the guy wrote.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:37 pm 
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Oh come off it BHL. Your inflection was clear as a bell. You Warmachine guys with your rulers, and Rolemaster geeks with your mega character creation sessions, are all the same. And Knights of the Diner Table, I mean come on, could he draw any worse?!

Despite your denial of the obvious I will answer a rebutal for you.

    Counting squares would be a very poor mechanic in a minatures game and despite this, WotC tie-ins to their D&D Minis game proves a gross cross marketing scheme designed to bolster sales of its lame miniature, square counting, products.

    And Powers? What the hell is that? I should have abilities that I can use whenever I want, however I want.

Cool. Let the flames rise.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:56 pm 
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Boathouselooper wrote:

    Counting squares would be a very poor mechanic in a minatures game and despite this, WotC tie-ins to their D&D Minis game proves a gross cross marketing scheme designed to bolster sales of its lame miniature, square counting, products.

    And Powers? What the hell is that? I should have abilities that I can use whenever I want, however I want.



Well I kinda like it just for what it is. I think it's a solid enough game for those of us new or out-of-practice in the RPG world. Since I have very little to compare it to, I think the main thing for me will be ease of access and depth of possibilities. Any RPG is only as good as your imagination.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:05 pm 
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Playstation 3 kicks Xbox 360 @SS!!!!


opps....wrong forum....

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Thanks Ser, for saying what I couldn't. I still feel like a noob here so I don't want to offend anyone. :-s

Clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of me.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:44 pm 
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boathouselooper wrote:
Thanks Ser, for saying what I couldn't. I still feel like a noob here so I don't want to offend anyone. :-s

Clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of me.


I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

And nice tie in to the forum quote btw. However, there something I ought to tell you. I... am not left-handed.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:20 pm 
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So as the dust settles... I can say this after keeping the 4th edition core rules by the can to do some "light reading" while "lightening the load," I can tell you that I like the character creation way better. Here's what I like about the feats and abilities about each class; all the classes are a lot more interesting than before. Where thieves used to "hang out and try to not get killed" in earlier editions, now they are viable threats with the combat system. Warriors are FAR cooler with all the different abilities they get per level (leveling up in 2nd edition was like "hey sweet... THAC0 down one, more hitpoints and all I still get to do swing my lousy sword).
I also like the idea of strickers, defenders and (the third illudes me at the moment) which totally helps define what role you play for the group. Now you could have two warriors that have TOTALLY different roles in the group.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:28 pm 
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Pffft. Rolemaster has had all those features for a long time.

For example, 1st level thief that gets +50% (+10 in DnD) to hit. Plus he can cast spells like spider climb and darkness. Total character customization via a points system.

\:D/

I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:22 pm 
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I've attached a copy of the editorial.

I merely provide the information. I do not condone nor condemn it.

BHL


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:06 pm 
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Eric Holdridge wrote:
I am liking the sound of it so much, in fact, that I find myself asking if the group is going to give this a try or not.

I think Seripmav got the books, and I am willing to try.

Ser -- what, if anything do I need to buy to be able to play? Can I just use the website and your books and get by or is there an essential purchase or two I would need to make to give this a try?

No hurry and no pressure if the group is not interested, but I am getting interested listening to so many podcasts that are singing 4E's praises. Granted, these are boardgame podcasts (and not RPG-based podcasts) which find this edition more palatable to boardgame enthusiasts, but I'm much more of a boardgamer these days anyway.

Cheers!

Since my last post in this forum, the group online I mentioned has indeed worked out how to do it. I'm not sure how much work is involved for the DM, but for players it's easy. I know the DM had to scan in all the maps, and then probably create the tokens for all the monsters we face. Once I learned how, I created macros to run each of my powers. My character is a Dragonborn warrior (soon to be level 3). I've got the main 3 books (the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's guide), and the only one a player really needs is the Player's Handbook. If you borrowed someone's PH (you could borrow mine, but I can never make it to game night because I work late on Thursdays, so I don't know when I'd get it to you) in order to create your character you might be alright. During sessions you only need to look things up if there are questions about a certain power.

If the group did want to do that, I think we'd want a different night. When we meet online, it's on Sunday at 1 pm, and we'll usually get through 2 or 3 encounters in a 3 or 4 hour session. So if it was on Thursday that would basically take up most of the time. But if people are interested, I'd be interested in joining a second group. I originally wanted to be a Warlock but my group already had two other strikers.

If anyone wants to make a character, I'd recommend using the character sheet available at http://dnd4.com/wp-content/uploads/2008 ... t-2105.zip . It requires Microsoft Office (there are bugs if you open it with OpenOffice), but it does the majority of the work for you.


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